Monday, March 1, 2010

The Universe: if God didn’t create it, who did?




I hear this question asked time after time in debates and in arguments between atheists and Christians. The premise of this question makes the assumption that everything within the framework of reality must have had a creator, and therefore, everything in the Universe must the creation of its own will. You will always hear them making assumptions like the watchmaker argument, or that 747 planes, don’t assembly themselves out of old parts in a scrap yard during a windstorms; they both have a designer, and were created by someone – so everything in the Universe must have a designer and creator also. This is a complete fallacy on so many different levels. We have many different examples of man-made planes and watches, and have no doubt as to their origins. We see in nature, all sorts of random and complex designs; from the random formation of crystals in snowflakes, to the uniqueness of our own fingerprints.
The main problems with these types of arguments are that we fully understand how planes and watches are designed and made; and we have many different designs of which, to compare. And therefore, we know, they’re all man-made. But in the case of the Universe, because we have no other Universe by which to observe, and compare to our own; we simply cannot make the same assumptions that it also must have a designer and creator. That would be like saying that no complex structures in nature can be created randomly; so we must then have cloud-pixies designing the crystals in each individual snowflake.
The fact is that only through science have we been able to gain any insight into these questions. And due to the fact, that just until recently, the church had held such an intense stranglehold on science and exploration; that we are now just beginning to gain the knowledge and understanding that we need, to begin to start answering these questions.
I often wonder, just how far general science would have advanced by now, and just how much further all the sciences would have advanced by now, including the science and our understanding of cosmology; if those who were working in the fields of science back then, hadn’t been forced to confine their research and their theories, within the views and the dogmas of the church. I think about, just how many children have been born over the past 400 years or so; who may have had the potential to become great scientists, but instead of being encouraged to strive and to learn, the reality of the natural world; but they only had their minds polluted with religious insanity and delusion, instead.

And I find it most appalling that after all the detriment to science that the churches have done in our resent past; in trying to legitimize their fairytales and myths as truths, and in silencing anyone or anything, with an opposing view, and even their willing to murder people by burning them at the stake, to keep their followers in the dark, and ignorant to the real truth – that today; we have so many who simply wish to keep their fucking heads stuck the sand, and remain ignorant and  ignore the reality of what’s been gained through the advancements in our understanding of science and the world around us. But have no problem using the same products of science to further their own ignorant agendas. 
Give it up Christians, real science doesn’t prove, that any of that deluded tripe written in the bible is true; it does, however, prove most of it, is at best false. And science was not created by god; both science and god were created by man – and the only real truth is in science; not in “god.”

You may be trying to lead yourselves and other Christians, even your own children back to the dark-ages; but we’re not going there, with you!            
               


Comments (9)

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I have to agree with you but figure you guessed that. I am mainly posting a comment so I can more easily follow possible comments from your favorite buddy gospel.
2 replies · active 787 weeks ago
I did this post in anticipation of another long proselytizing rant. And in hopes that they would post their rant here rather than at the “hate in Haiti” post. But I was a little late getting it out today, so I guess I’ll deal with it over there.
I saw the first few of his 11 post and am still trying to figure out where he is going this we are in the present thing. I have a feeling where he is going but want to wait until I see the rest of his comments.
Damn he is another of those YECers that continues to deny science but makes claims straight from the Discovery Institute believing it is science. I am going reply to his comments here wondering if he will check your new post.

1. Actually gospel we live in the present but when you look though your telescope you aren't actually seeing the light from stars in the present. The light you are seeing is seconds to millions of years old. There are probably stars you are seeing that don't even exist anymore. Yeah the light you are seeing is in your present but it is from the past.

2. So far you are talking about the present and how everything is in it. So what if everything is in the present, it all has a past and if you take the time you can find information about that past.

3. Where is this proof of science confirming the bible. As I understand it most educated theologists agree that most the OT was written between 900BCE and 500BCE. There wasn't You will need to provide citations for this proofjust one author of the first five books as you believe but as many as 5 and one that brought them together in one book. You need to provide citations for this proof. Don't use the Discovery Institute as proof since they have been debunked to much to be taken serious.
1 reply · active 787 weeks ago
The Discovery Institute???

The first time I heard this tripe was back in the 80s, I was about 25 years-old. I met a deluded Christian at a space-science fair; he was with about 5 other bible-thumpers, who claimed that they were all scientist. We got into a debate (an argument) over the age of the Universe. They postulated the “comet argument,” as “proof” that the Universe was only about 9000-10.000 years old. I agreed to meet these morons the next day, for a video debate at their church (me against 6 of them). The next day when I arrived at the church; there was about 20 others milling around, who came to watch.

I listened to them for over an hour spewing this deluded tripe at me – they believed that they had completely proved their augment to me. It only took me less than an hour to lay their silly asses to waste. There are 3 main problems in this fallacy. Matter can NOT in its current state, travel faster than the speed of light. Therefore, if the Universe was only 10,000 years old, then it’s only about 20,000 light years wide. Just in our own galaxy, there are over a million-billion stars. In the Universe, it is estimated that there are over a billion-billion galaxies. There is NO way that all the matter could fit into a 10,000 year old Universe; and if by some fucking magic it did; it would be so fucking hot, and spewing so much radiation in all directions, and NO life could possibly exists, anywhere within it. And if the universe was even just one billion years old; and somehow all the galaxies and stars did fit, they would start eating each other until all the matter coalesced into just one supper massive star, which would then clasps in on itself, and then create a supper massive black-hole from “hell.” Their young Universe theory, has no factual bases in any science – and in the end, and after their argument had falling apart, then they just reverted back to”god did it.”

And there’s more than a 1000 other reasons their theory is false. I just find it amazing; that they’re sill saying this bullshit!
3.(cont.) Why is it that everyone wants to use the Dead Sea Scroll as proof but ignores the scrolls of the Gnostic Christians. I have forgotten the name of them but what I know about them they conflict with your NT pretty good. Is that proof that your NT is false? Stating that the Dead Sea scrolls are pretty close to what other copies are isn't really that surprising when you think about it. What percentage of people could actually write at the time they were done and for many years after that. The ability to write was maintained with in religion and royalty. That would mean only a small number of people would actually be writing this stuff and much less chance for error.

I'm not sure where you are getting information but you might want to expand you studies some.

4. Because there are more of one book then another doesn't prove anything. Have you studied how christians destroyed any documents that disagreed with their religious views. There is plenty of evidence that more knowledge has been lost to fear of the religious then any other way. How many scrolls have been lost to the flames of christians. A more modern example of the damage christians can do is the history of the Aztecs. We have very little information about them because most of their records were destroyed because the Spanish believe they were of the devil. If you compare the number of documents from that time I would bet you would find more proof of the Spanish the the Aztecs. So having more documents basically means others were destroyed not that something is true.

5. Citations.

6. Oh the pr of the Discovery Institute.

7. Hum where do you get this stuff. Lets think about this and we will find that a comet will pick up stuff from space itself. If you think about the amount of time a comet is far away from the sun it has many years to collect chunks of rock and other matter before losing some to the sun.

8. Is it logical to believe some being that is unable to allow sin in his presence would create that sin? If you really believe god created everything then he created everything. To blame man for gods failure is not logical.

9. More discovery Institute BS.

10. Now which of the two creation stories is the correct one?

11. Wow you completely buy into the Discovery Institute. I feel sorry for you and can only hope one day you will take the blinders off and find that life can be so much better when you don't chain yourself to death.
The real question is does it really matter how the universe was created. If you think it does, why? This is really picayune bullshit that can't be tested much less proven and worrying about it is a waste of time.
1 reply · active 787 weeks ago
I believe the most important questions for mankind are how the universe came into being, and why we are here. This would not only bring about a great leap in our understanding of epistemology, but also give us a better understanding of what role, if any, we play in the grand scheme of things.

I bet you don’t think it’s a trivial matter, when you or one of your loved ones becomes ill; that the medicine that they’re being treated with was all derived from real science, do you? If it was not for the theories of Albert Einstein, we probably would never have discovered semiconductors, and now have all the modern technology, we all enjoy today.

The gains we make in our understanding through one form science, also reciprocates to all of the other forms of sciences as well. A better understanding in the area of one science, will lead to a better understanding, in another.

A lot of stupid and deluded Christians believe that the science of cosmology and those involved in it; are simply trying to disprove the “existence” of “god.” That could not be any further from the truth. The fact is, either they’re just too stupid to even grasp the simplest concept of cosmology; or they’re just trying in using this stupid argument, to add credence to their silly beliefs.

There’s not much in science, which cannot readily seen that can be proved, to an ignorant person anyway? So scientific evidence, and Christian “proof,” are two different matters anyway!
It is written....Ps. 51:6...Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. All knowledge comes from a higher level. the mysterious limitless a shapeless nucleus enclosed in a ring, neither white nor black nor red nor green nor of any colous to show within, and within the lamp there issued a certain effuence from which colours were imprinted below. The most mysterious Power enshrouded in the limitless clave as it were withous cleaving its void, remaining wholly unknowable until for the force of the strokes there shone forth a supernal point. Beyond that point there it is not known to us, but to the eternal. the creative utterance which is the starting point of all. It is written... And the intelligent shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness like the stars for ever and ever. Dan.12:3

Think....just like a silk worm encloses itself, G-D palace of His own production which is both useful and beautiful, made it palace ....in the beginning----G-D created----Man in G-D image. Man was both male and female.

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